Team Anna on Tuesday said that it was willing to negotiate with the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) Government and help in formulating a strong Lokpal Bill. Speaking exclusively to CNN-IBN, Anna Hazare's close associate Arvind Kejriwal said that the civil society will not put precondition for the talks to end the Lokpal deadlock.
Below is the full transcript of the interview:
Rajdeep Sardesai: We believe that a possibility of breakthrough does exist today between Team Anna and the government. Who better to tell us in what forms or what contours those negotiations could take place, than a key member of Team Anna, Arvind Kejriwal, who now joins us.
The big question of course is you have made it very clear that you don’t want any mediators in the talks that should take place. Who do you want to talk to? Who is Arvind Kejriwal and Team Anna today willing to talk to from the government’s side, if you don’t want any mediators?
Arvind Kejriwal: Rajdeep, we haven’t laid down any conditions. Annaji made it very clear yesterday that any responsible person from the government is welcome. Any person who has the authority to talk on behalf of the government. So we have no pre-conditions or anything like that.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You say you have no pre-conditions or anything like that, but when we spoke to Annaji this morning, he said he would like a political representative of the Prime Minister. Someone of credibility, someone of integrity, someone of honesty and not someone who they feel has betrayed them in the past. Am I to then understand that the likes of Kapil Sibal and Mr Chidambaram, whom you have discussed and had a dialogue with in the past, are not acceptable for any negotiations?
Arvind Kejriwal: No, I agree with what Annaji is saying and as we have been saying that this is a political problem. It is not a legal or a bureaucratic or a technical problem. It is a political problem and it needs to have a political solution through a dialogue which doesn’t seem to be coming through. Today it’s the eighth day and unfortunately the government hasn’t responded for any kind of a dialogue.
Rajdeep Sardesai: No, but please answer the question in a sense Arvind, that are the likes of Chidambaram and Sibal acceptable to you if they are authorised by the Prime Minister or does it have to be someone who is completely, in a way, untainted by all that has happened over the last few months where you’ve had this discussion with the government?
Arvind Kejriwal: Right. I agree that it’ll be difficult to talk to these two people.
Rajdeep Sardesai: It would be difficult for you to talk to Chidambaram and Sibal or a Salman Khurshid, who have been part of the negotiations so far. Those who have been part of the negotiation, you cannot trust.
Arvind Kejriwal: Rajdeep I would appreciate, let’s not start taking names and let’s not start discarding names. It’s not right to this in a programme. Let’s see what the government offers and we will respond to that once we get an offer from the government.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But you said very clearly Arvind, that you believe that this is a political problem. It needs a political situation. Are you saying that the negotiations have to now take place at a formal level because there have been a lot of people like Sri Sri Ravi Shankar and Bhaiyyu Maharaj who have offered to informally mediate between Team Anna and the government. Are you saying that informal negotiations cannot take place?
Arvind Kejriwal: No we are not discarding anyone’s role. What we are saying is that all these things that are going on also may have some benefit. But now it is time that the government should officially send someone to talk to Annaji.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Are the talks to take place with Annaji or are the talks are to take place with Team Anna? Are they to take place with you, Prashant Bhushan..
Arvind Kejriwal: It is one and the same thing. Annaji will authorise whoever he authorises they would talk. But let the government offer because we are just five-six of us. Who do we talk to in the government? A week back Mr Chidambaram said that the government wants to talk to us. Who do we talk to? On Saturday, the Prime Minister said we want to have a dialogue, yesterday again the Prime Minister said we want to have a dialogue. We have been saying who do we talk to? Where do we come? Who do we meet? We are not getting a response to that. The government is only saying this to the media. But we want to have a dialogue. Democracy works through dialogue.
Rajdeep Sardesai: And in what form should the dialogue take place. Is it on all the provisions of the Jan Lokpal Bill, is it on the way forward? And are you saying that while the dialogue continues, Anna will call off his fast? Or will the fast be only called off if the dialogue results in some positive result?
Arvind Kejriwal: The fast will be called off only if the dialogue results in some positive results.
Rajdeep Sardesai: And what is the nature of this dialogue, Arvind that you are willing to have? Is it on specific provisions of the Jan Lokpal Bill or is it on the process that has to be adopted now for taking the Lokpal Bill forward? What are the contours of the dialogue that you want?
Arvind Kejriwal: It will be on the provisions. There are about 22 or 24 points on which there are differences. So it will be a discussion on those points.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you open for negotiation on each of those points? For example whether the Prime Minister should be under the purview of the Lokpal or not. Whether the Judiciary should be under the purview. Whether Citizens’ Charter… what form should it take? Are all these open for discussion?
Arvind Kejriwal: You see Rajdeep, right now the discussion and negotiations cannot take place in this programme. We can’t negotiate with ourselves, we can’t negotiate with you. We have to negotiate with the government and when you sit down, suppose someone says that look this particular provision is not possible in this manner, it is possible in this manner. So solutions will emerge once the talks start.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you confident that within 24 hours of the talks the solution can emerge?
Arvind Kejriwal: I am confident that if the talks start, everything is possible through an honest dialogue. If the government is sincere, if the government is honest, I am confident that within a few hours some solution should emerge.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Okay, the government, Arvind, has also called for an all-party meeting tomorrow. Due you appreciate that the government appears to feel that they need to involve a political consensus now before they take the next step? Or do you believe that this is only a delaying tactic?
Arvind Kejriwal: They are welcome to have an all-party meeting. All-party meeting is also important to develop a political consensus. But rather than waiting till tomorrow’s all-party meeting decision, there is no reason why the government cannot start a dialogue at the political level today.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You are saying that the government should begin the political dialogue even before the all-party meeting takes place tomorrow.
Arvind Kejriwal: Exactly. If something emerges out of this dialogue, they can take that to the all-party meeting and develop a consensus on that.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But Arvind, there is also a Parliament process. There is a feeling that you want that process bypassed in some way. Are you willing to give the government time? The Standing Committee Chairman Abhishek Manu Singhvi says give us six to eight weeks, we will come back with a Bill, which will fully satisfy Team Anna. Are you willing to give him the time?
Arvind Kejriwal: It is a political problem, which needs a political solution. If the government wants, if there is a political will, a solution can be found in 24 hours. And if the government does not want, they can show us several committees, they can tell us several rules, they can tell us several laws how it cannot be done.
Rajdeep Sardesai: No, but six to eight weeks is what he is asking for. Are you willing to give the government that time? Is the August 30 deadline sacrosanct?
Arvind Kejriwal: This is the way to take this team of the movement. On April 5 they said let’s have a Joint Committee. One favours a Joint Committee – you have seen the fate of the Joint Committee. They took the steam out of the movement at that time and they have just postponed the whole thing. Now they are saying give us another eight weeks. The country has waited for 42 years. There have already been eight committees. Let us try and understand the role of a Standing Committee. The role of a Standing Committee is to take the inputs from all the sources and present that to Parliament. Now this particular issue has already been debated so many times. Standing Committee is merely recommendatory. So let us not get confused with these committees and rules. It is a political problem.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you asking for the Standing Committee to be bypassed? Are you saying that you don’t trust Abhishek Manu Singhvi when he says give me six or eight weeks, I will come back with more-or-less what you are saying as part of the Bill? Are you saying it is too late for that?
Arvind Kejriwal: But what is the need? We have already been discussing all this. The Joint Committee has already discussed this. There have been two bills. Now this is just, I personally feel a delaying tactic. As I am again saying, this is a political problem. Let us sit down, let’s have a dialogue and find a solution. You don’t need eight weeks to find a solution. You can do it in eight hours.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you saying therefore the August 30 deadline for the Bill to be passed is still sacrosanct? Justice Santosh Hegde was on our programme and he also said that maybe some more time can be given to the government and you cannot simply bypass the Parliament.
Arvind Kejriwal: Rajdeep, we are talking of the deadline without having started the process. Every day the deadline is nearing. It would have been much better if we had started the procedure seven days back when Anna started his fast. And then we would have perhaps reached a solution also. Now we are just talking about the deadline but not talking of the beginning of the process of dialogue.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Is the deadline sacred or are you willing to be flexible?
Arvind Kejriwal: As of now the deadline is sacred as Annaji has said.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But in the future are you willing to be flexible because there is one sense that the government wants you to wear you down. That if Anna’s health deteriorates further, your room for further manoeuvre becomes that much less. Are you worried about that?
Arvind Kejriwal: That’s very unfortunate. I also have that feeling that seems to be the strategy on the part of the government. Let me just tell you if something happens to Anna and if Anna has to be hospitalised, I think large number of people will be on the streets. The situation just might get out of hand. The government should appreciate that and they should act in a more responsible manner.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But there is another part to it Arvind, wherein there are other groups like Aruna Roy’s, someone you have been closely associated with, who also want their proposals to be put before the Standing Committee. Can all that be bypassed? Are you willing that an Aruna Roy, for example, may also have valuable suggestions to offer? I mean, why fast-forward a process and insist on August 30. When maybe, give it a couple of more weeks, and maybe it can be done in a more harmonious manner. Why this putting of a gun on the head of the government?
Arvind Kejriwal: Why can’t Arunaji also sit down right now? Let us all sit down and find a solution.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You are ready to sit face-to-face with her and ready to come with a joint Jan Lokpal Bill that includes all points of the civil society?
Arvind Kejriwal: I have tried so many times to talk to Mrs Aruna Roy. Arunaji is like a teacher to me. She is my guru. Last two months, we have tried so many times to contact them, to talk to them. They were just not willing to talk. Rajdeep, when I met you in the morning I told you the whole process.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Are you saying today though on television that you are willing to reach out to her?
Arvind Kejriwal: Of course. Of course we are willing to reach out to them and also Rajdeep I told you there are hardly any differences between what they are saying and what we are saying. We have very petty differences. They are technical differences.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But the differences seem to be more in the method. What Aruna Roy and others, including Arundhati Roy. Arundhati yesterday in an article seemed to be worried about is that the methods you are adopting. They seem to be worried that these street protests, fast-unto-death can go out of control. All kinds of elements can join in and you can’t have a Parliamentary process being carried forward with a gun held at the head of the Parliament. Isn’t that where the problem is? The differences seem to lie in the methods.
Arvind Kejriwal: If the difference is in the methods then they are free to have their own opinion. We are doing the movement in the manner… it is a peaceful movement. Annaji is sitting on a fast-unto-death. But you are confusing the two issues. Just now you said that Arunaji also has a solution and you have a solution - then why not present both of them before the Standing Committee. So method of protest will not be presented before the Standing Committee. On methods of protest we can have our differences. And as I was telling you that Arunaji’s proposal and our proposal hardly has any differences. So let us sit with the government, let us talk to them and let the government take a political decision, that on these 22-24 points, what are the points on which the government agrees and what are those points on which the government does not agree.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But Arvind, today is August 23, you have set a deadline of August 30. One week. Can such a major Bill be passed in one week? Surely you can say that look, we can give you some more time. You can show that flexibility and the government on its part can also reach out to you. Is that a possibility?
Arvind Kejriwal: Rajdeep tomorrow you will say that there are only six left. The process has to start. Why aren’t you concentrating on the beginning of the process? It hasn’t started. We have wasted seven days and as we move towards August 30, you will keep on repeating that the deadline will get more and more unreasonable.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Arvind, you are right. The deadline could get more and more unreasonable. The point I am saying: do you want the government to withdraw its Bill right away first as a step forward? You have seen the CNN-IBN formula Arvind. We are saying the government withdraws its Bill and you also agree to amendments. And then a joint study group within one month comes up and a special session of Parliament is held. What do you think? Is that a right solution that you would agree with?
Arvind Kejriwal: I would agree with the first part but not the second part. I agree that the government ought to withdraw this Bill immediately but I don’t think one month’s time is needed. I think we can all sit down and find a solution in 24 hours.
Rajdeep Sardesai: You believe that a solution can be found in 24 hours. Arvind, one last point and it’s a criticism that is coming of you and the others. That you guys have formed a coterie around Anna Hazare. That you are dictating to Anna Hazare now what he has to do. That you, Prashant Bhushan, Kiran Bedi are the ones who are obstinate. Anna has an open mind. How do you respond?
Arvind Kejriwal: You met Anna today.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Yes.
Arvind Kejriwal: Did you also feel like that?
Rajdeep Sardesai: I felt that Anna has an open mind. That Anna wants negotiations and the dialogue to go forward in a more of a conciliation. He wants a solution. There is a feeling among some that Arvind Kejriwal and Kiran Bedi are insisting on who will talk to Anna, how the talks will take place, on what issues they will take place. Can you clarify that you are not obstinate and stubborn when it comes to the nature of this dialogue?
Arvind Kejriwal: In the morning you spoke to me and you spoke to Anna also. Where are the points on which we have stayed obstinate? And where are the points on which you thought that Anna was talking differently from us? I think we are all on the same plane. When the government does not get any other logic to discredit us, they find these kinds of things. That look, Anna is being surrounded by a coterie of people. Anna is talking a different language. There is a split in civil society. I think all this talk is bunkum. Let’s come to the issue of Lokpal Bill.
Rajdeep Sardesai: We’ll come to the issue of the Lokpal Bill. You are calling it bunkum but how do we resolve that issue? Given the fact that the government says look we have a Parliamentary process on and you are saying look we need negotiations and within 24 hours our Jan Lokpal Bill can become the basis of legislation. There are clear divergences. Are you ready to find a middle ground?
Arvind Kejriwal: We have been in discussion for the last four months.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But that was just you and the government. There are other political parties involved. That meeting only had Congress representatives and representatives of Team Anna. What about other civil society, what about other political parties? This process cannot be done surely, Arvind, in 24 hours.
Arvind Kejriwal: I completely agree. That is exactly what I am saying Rajdeep. If you don’t have to do it, you can hide behind all these procedures and you can hide behind all these committees. If you want to do it, you can do it in 24 hours. The decision has to be taken at a political level. Whether they want to do it or they don’t want to do it. If they don’t want to do it they will give you all such sorts of things that there are procedures, there are committees, this and that. We have been into these committees and procedures for the last 42 years. The government did not want to do it. Today the people are on streets.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But are we going to say that people on the streets are reason enough to fast-forward an important piece of legislation? Is that the nature of democracy?
Arvind Kejriwal: Yes of course it is. If lakhs of people are on the streets, Parliament ought to discuss and decide in an urgent manner. And Parliament has done it. The SEZ Act was passed in five minutes. The Prevention of Corruption Act was likely to be amended, a very bad amendment was about to come through, in just few minutes. So if there is political will, they can do it in a few minutes. If there is no political will then the act can wait for 42 years.
Rajdeep Sardesai: But is it any specifics? Is it the Prime Minister’s Office, Judiciary – are there any specifics on which you are willing to be flexible? Or are you saying that our 22 points – no way or the highway? Is that the fear? Arvind Kejriwal and the team are saying either my 22 points or we cannot negotiate.
Arvind Kejriwal: Rajdeep as I am saying that negotiations cannot take place with you on this programme. I also cannot negotiate with myself. When you sit in negotiations, you discuss. It is not black and white, yes or no. Sometimes you discuss a problem and then you try to find a solution. There are 10 ways in which you can find 10 different ways of putting it in the law. It is only when the dialogue takes place in an honest manner... last time we said let’s have a joint drafting committee. The dialogue did not take place in an honest manner. Now we want the dialogue to take place in an honest manner.
Rajdeep Sardesai: I appreciate your saying it should take place in an honest manner. But Arvind, the point will come back again and again. We’ve got people like Bhaiyyu Maharaj who are coming with an 11-point proposal to Anna. Are you saying that the honest manner should be official negotiation? And those have to be completed by August 30?
Arvind Kejriwal: Yes.
Rajdeep Sardesai: By August 30? All negotiations to be completed?
Arvind Kejriwal: That is what the status is right now because you see, as I again said, the process has not started yet. And we are only talking of the deadline.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Because you and Anna raised the deadline. The August 30 deadline is something that you raised.
Arvind Kejriwal: Why don’t you ask the government that why aren’t they starting the process?
Rajdeep Sardesai: You are saying the government is deliberately delaying the process. You are sticking to August 30 deadline. On top of it, Arvind, yesterday we had MPs' houses being gheraoed. Do you support all this? Do you believe that is the only way in which your voices will be heard? If the houses of MPs are gheraoed? Aren’t you worried that the situation could slip out of control to unruly elements? Only yesterday I can tell you Arvind, one of our reporters has been beaten up by people on a bike claiming to be Team Anna’s supporters, late in the night, who were drunk. Is there a fear Arvind that you and others have that unruly elements could take over what is so far have been a peaceful movement?
Arvind Kejriwal: There are three elements to your question. One is whatever happened to your people last night. There have been some reports that some people have turned unruly. In the morning only we made a statement that we completely do not support this. We don’t support this at all. The movement has to be very peaceful, very organised, very well-mannered, and we have to behave ourselves. We cannot break the rules, we cannot break the laws. We don’t support anything like that and we again want to make an appeal to the people that this is also corruption. If they do not behave themselves properly, if they break the rules, that is also corruption. And we will not have a moral authority to talk about corruption in the government if we do not behave ourselves properly. So first of all, whoever is participating in this movement ought to behave properly, number one. Number two is, the people who are going to various MPs’ houses, in Delhi I have seen, some students went with flowers to the house of Dr Manmohan Singh, to Mr Kapil Sibal’s house, to Mr Pranab Mukherjee’s house and Mr Chidambaram’s house. They just wanted to meet them. They were just sitting outside and they were put in jail. Now they are our elected representatives. What kind of democracy do we have? Don’t I have the right to go to my representative and ask for a meeting with the person? Can’t these people, they have become ministers today, can’t they come out of the house and say, hey guys, why don’t you come and have a cup of tea with me? What is the problem?
Rajdeep Sardesai: Arvind it’s not so innocuous. There’s a feeling that political activists, particularly the Opposition, are also using this to fire off your back and undermine the government, to try and bring it down. Is there a fear that you will be used by the Opposition? Today the Left and other parties have called for a bandh. The BJP is calling for an agitation from August 25. This is now becoming about political activists to bring down Manmohan Singh’s government and Arvind Kejriwal and Anna Hazare are being used.
Arvind Kejriwal: We are not in the support of bringing down any government. Our interest is only in Jan Lokpal Bill. But let me also tell you, don’t mix up these two issues. I was talking about the people trying to meet their elected representatives. Now whether he is from this party or that party, let’s not try to colour it like that. Whoever is the person sitting outside the house of an MP, the MP ought to come out and talk to them. The MP cannot take a stand that this person is not from my party I will not meet him. The MP is not part of Parliament of that particular party but he is the MP of a particular constituency. Whoever is present, if he came out and met them… there is no reason a person cannot meet his representative. Even if they are sitting outside his house, you cannot put the people in jail.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Arvind, you started the programme by saying that you are ready to meet an elected representative, this is a political problem. Do you have faith in the Prime Minister? Do you trust the Prime Minister? Because in your slogans you have said, sarkar nikammi hai (the government is useless). Are you trusting this Prime Minister enough to believe that the political representative sent by him is someone you are willing to negotiate with?
Arvind Kejriwal: He is the Prime Minister of our country and whoever he sends we will be happy to talk to him.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Do you have faith in Manmohan Singh? Do you have faith in the credibility of Manmohan Singh? Do you believe that Manmohan Singh is serious about the Jan Lokpal Bill or not?
Arvind Kejriwal: I think that is not the important question. The important question is that the government ought to pass this Jan Lokpal Bill.
Rajdeep Sardesai: The government ought to pass the Jan Lokpal Bill. Who is that individual Arvind, do you want a Rahul Gandhi, do you want an AK Antony, a Jairam Ramesh? Is there any specific name? When we asked Anna Hazare, he said he was ok with Prithviraj Chavan because he had a clean record. Is there any specific individual you want to deal with today?
Arvind Kejriwal: No, I wouldn’t like to suggest any names. Let the names be suggested by the government. But it will be better if it is a senior political representative.
Rajdeep Sardesai: And it has to be a direct talk only with Team Anna? It cannot involve civil society’s other representative. It cannot involve any other political representative. It has to be the PM’s representative and Team Anna. You believe that is the only way forward?
Arvind Kejriwal: I think there has to be a serious dialogue. I mean, that is exactly what I am saying. There has to be a serious political dialogue.
Rajdeep Sardesai: And one last thing Arvind. Are you saying this kind of dialogue which will be initiated, will it be the final step you believe; if the government at the end of the day says okay we are ready now to at least table the Jan Lokpal Bill in Parliament, will that be sufficient? Or is passage necessary? Are you saying that passage is the only thing that will convince you of the government’s credibility?
Arvind Kejriwal: Let us first have the Lokpal Bill tabled in Parliament. A strong and effective Lokpal Bill tabled in Parliament. Once we go through that process we would know the seriousness and the honesty of the government only then all of us can sit down and take a call.
Rajdeep Sardesai: And what you are saying is that till that process begins, Anna’s fast will continue. This agitation will continue. You are not willing to allow any window, any scope for manoeuvre till such time as that process is not complete.
Arvind Kejriwal: What are those windows, what are those manoeuvrable points you have in mind?
Rajdeep Sardesai: Well, I am saying some negotiation. Is there some space to give the elbow room? Are you today on this programme willing to say to the government that look, out of 22 proposals we have a difference on, two of them we are ready to negotiate, 20 we are inflexible on. Is there any such pre-condition?
Arvind Kejriwal: Rajdeep, as I said, you are trying to negotiate. We have to do the negotiation with the government.
Rajdeep Sardesai: Okay.
Arvind Kejriwal: And when you sit down at the table there are ways to find solutions.
Rajdeep Sardesai: No pre-conditions?
Arvind Kejriwal: The negotiations can’t take place in a programme.
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